並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/tw/podcast/ep18-%E9%98%BF%E5%AC%A4-%E5%A6%B3%E7%9A%84%E8%85%B3%E6%80%8E%E9%BA%BC%E6%B2%92%E6%84%9F%E8%A6%BA/id1538704590?i=1000506086525