並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E9%A3%9B%E7%A2%9F%E9%9B%BB%E5%8F%B0-%E9%A3%9B%E7%A2%9F%E8%81%AF%E6%92%AD%E7%B6%B2-zL7XeJiFfA-/